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ARRIVALS AND INTRODUCTIONS
Bonnie DeVarco: Hi tortoro
Totoro: Hello, Bonnie.
Lucio: hello :) setebos: hi bonnie Bonnie DeVarco: Hi Karl setebos:
hi lucio
Bonnie DeVarco: Hi Lucio
Bonnie DeVarco: still loading triangles here
Lucio: k :)
Totoro: BTW, I just now read some of the KU/MM exchanges re BFI on syn-l.
setebos: i came by yesterday and did some downloading.
Bonnie DeVarco: I will introduce you though -- the triangle above us
-- Birde? is Karl - Setebos
Totoro: Hello, Lucio.
setebos: finding it amusing, totoro?
Bonnie DeVarco: And Totoro is John Braley, another fine synergeticist
Bonnie DeVarco: This is Lucio Pascarelli, coming live from Rome
Bonnie DeVarco: We are all from the west coast setebos: nice to meet
you lucio
setebos: i read your av98 transcript. interesting.
Lucio: nice to meet you all to :)
setebos: the geometrical display of information of any kind is one of
my particular interests.
Lucio: I'm from Rome (and in Rome) ...
Bonnie DeVarco: Lucio showed me an amazing demonstration of the automatic
generation of this type of world last week
setebos: i'm in virtualia...
Bonnie DeVarco: using a system based on fractal algorithms
setebos: dunno where my body went... oh wait - near seattle, that's
right.
Lucio: nice one setebos :)
Bonnie DeVarco: John and Karl have been using nature as a model with
modeling based on synergetic geometry
Bonnie DeVarco: which, according to bucky Fuller, is Nature's Coordinate
System
setebos: we're definitely wanting to incorporate generation into struck.
Bonnie DeVarco: Did you see Lucio's transcript Karl and John?
setebos: fractal type stuff and evolutionary algorithms will probably
be pretty big.
Lucio: :)
Bonnie DeVarco: And were you able to look at the quicktime anims of
Karl's recent avatars?
setebos: read the transcript. wish we'd of had instant slides at the
struck talk..
"fignewton": I read Lucio's transcript. I used t live in Rome as a kid
and some of the parents I was friends with worked at FAO -- Kirby here.
Bonnie DeVarco: well now you will be able to see this amazing process
in action. I wish I was digitally recording this session
setebos: hi kirby
Bonnie DeVarco: Hey Kirby, glad you could make it!
Lucio: k :)
Bonnie DeVarco: We will have a few others joining us at noon and Lucio
will go through the process step by step
Lucio: while we wait... behind me is a model of Virtualy
"fignewton": I'm just now going to plunk down my $19.95 and become a
citizen...
Bonnie DeVarco: k
Lucio: brb
setebos: it's worth it to get those quotes removed from your nickname....
;)
Bonnie DeVarco: and get out of "grey" and into the black...
Bonnie DeVarco: :-) setebos: not quite sure of the value otherwise....
Totoro: Talking about fractals....I just noticed this model of Virtualia
is missing this model of Virtualia.
Bonnie DeVarco: lotsa things you can do if you are a citizen.
Lucio: yes... that is why I say "non-linear" ... and not really fractal
:)))
Bonnie DeVarco: hahaha setebos: it's fractal with a low depth..
Bonnie DeVarco: and little models to infinity setebos: if we could scale
these avatars, tho, you'd see the little virtualia model in the model
i'm sure...
Bonnie DeVarco: or have a fly down sequence
Bonnie DeVarco: powers of ten -- which is what we are doing now for
another world setebos: when you get so close, it just teleports you
up into the sky and you're looking at the real thing.
Lucio: nice :)
Lucio: except that intel will have to work hard to give us that kind
of computing power :((( setebos: is AW your primary medium, lucio? or
have you experimented with many others?
Lucio: no... this is my first "real" entry into 3-d setebos: i mean
of any kind of medium. i concede that AW seems to be the best VR.
setebos: so far...
Lucio: agree... so far....
Bonnie DeVarco: I think many will agreee with you Lucio
Lucio: what do you mean "medium" ?
Bonnie DeVarco: I have a quick question for you both Karl and John
setebos: net communication media. e.g. irc, icq, etc.
setebos: web... i think i didn't see very far into your website. is
it extensive?
setebos: ok bonnie
Bonnie DeVarco: are the large geometries in the geometry playground
one piece each -- I mean one discreet model or made of modules?
setebos: what, the struck display at amigos? they are individual models.
Bonnie DeVarco: AW is a medium of "place" not just communication --
that is a very unique and different thing than icq, irc etc.
Bonnie DeVarco: yes, even the largest one?
Totoro: No modules -- if you mean the tensegrities, etc., in Amigos,
Bonnie.
setebos: well, there is VRML, too.
Bonnie DeVarco: not very good on multi-user, vrml that is
setebos: the big double-layer dome is one piece, converted directly
from an RBF of mine.
Lucio: I've been responsible for the Internet'ting of FAO since 1995
Bonnie DeVarco: All 2d so far, right lucio?
setebos: i found your speculation about the bandwidth of VR to be interesting,
but i'm a bit skeptical so far. looking forward to demo.
zg: hello all ; 0 )
Bonnie DeVarco: The reason why I am asking about the geometries is because
Totoro:
Hello, zg.
Lucio: yes ... 2d
setebos: additionally, AW seems to be klugey in many ways, but hopefully
that is only for now, and it will change soon.
setebos: hi zg
Bonnie DeVarco: hi zg
Bonnie DeVarco: I think it is very important when you begin, Lucio to
describe more about modular components
setebos: there was a brief mention in the transcript - perhaps incorrect?
- that you write science fiction too, lucio?
Bonnie DeVarco: and describe the difference between your 60,000 modules
and a standard AW module
setebos: that's one thing i'm curious about myself.
Bonnie DeVarco: because it is something in AW that we take for granted
Lucio: no... I don't write :))) used to read a lot of it back 10 years
ago :)
setebos: one annoying constraint of AW is its boxiness.
Lucio: Ok Bonnie :)
Bonnie DeVarco: thanks -- I think we are still waiting for queenbee,
Margaret Corbit that is
setebos: and gerald..
Bonnie DeVarco: Bruce and Henrik and Gerald and Mytwokeys
Bonnie DeVarco: or is it 2keys zg: mtk - easier :)
Bonnie DeVarco: :-) Lucio: how many will we be ? more than 8 ?
Bonnie DeVarco: Lucio, will having more than 8 pose a prob for demo?
Lucio: LPtes world is for 8... I can do it here in Virtualy if necessary
zg: i don't think caretakers count towards the number
Lucio: can you add more than one caretaker ? (just thought of it)
Bonnie DeVarco: 8, 16 -- hmmm those magic octonion numbers again
setebos: hi strucky
Strucky: hi Totoro: Hello, Strucky.
Bonnie DeVarco: Hi strucky!!!
Strucky: i felllll waaaay down!
Bonnie DeVarco: Bruce is here now too -- I will tele margaret
zg: hi gerald digigardener: hi all setebos: hi digi
Bonnie DeVarco: Hi digi!
Totoro: Hi, Digi.
digigardener: fell thru the ground
Lucio: I don't think MTK knows :(((
zg: hiya
Lucio: yep... happens first time
setebos: i was wondering, is there a practical reason for that falling?
Lucio: yep happens first time
digi :)))
Bonnie DeVarco: (to Lucio) yes, bruce told mtk
Strucky: hi y'all
Bonnie DeVarco: (to Lucio) she or he?
digigardener: guys for some wormy geometry fun, put
digigardener: http://www.best.com/~claurel/java/worm/index.html
digigardener: into your web window
Bonnie DeVarco: k
Lucio: k ...
digigardener: hi gerald
Bonnie DeVarco: nice
Strucky: long time no see Bruce!
digigardener: looks strucklike huh?
digigardener: yes! miss our conversations
Strucky: what looks strucklike?
Bonnie DeVarco: no tets -- not struck\
setebos: struck could probably do this.
Bonnie DeVarco: but very cool
Strucky: struck has big tets
Lucio: since we are more than 8 ... can we move AW (or somewhere else)...
while I set-up Vitualy for the demo ?
Bonnie DeVarco: so I should take a count
Strucky: :)
"fignewton": Well, I sent in my money, but I'm still a greyed out 2nd
class tourist fignewton. Guess the sky gods are processing my Visa number.
digigardener: they are all chris laurels creations
Bonnie DeVarco: okay shall we move to albion while we wait?
Bonnie DeVarco: is it open?
digigardener: ok
zg: yup
Bonnie DeVarco: okay with y'all?
Bonnie DeVarco: will it take about five minutes to set up lucio?
Lucio: k... then I will tele Bonnie when I'm ready ... 5 minutes :)
Strucky: i'll join
Bonnie DeVarco: k see you in albion gz
Lucio: yes... just need to stop the Virtualy and swap Id's
[Gaia]: Hi, Welcome to Albion
[Gaia]: Hei, Velkommen til Albion
[Gaia]: Hola, Bienvenidos a Albion
[Gaia]: Hi, Welcome to Albion
"Ely": Ciao io parlo italiano e tu?
[Gaia]: Hi, Welcome to Albion
Bonnie DeVarco: Hi gaia
[Gaia]: hmmm... now thats a very good question
[Gaia]: I speak only English,español,norsk
"Ely": hi
setebos: are brackets for bots?
zg: yes
Bonnie DeVarco: avs here are the best in town
[Gaia]: Hi, Welcome to Albion
[Gaia]: Hei, Velkommen til Albion
[Gaia]: Hola, Bienvenidos a Albion
setebos: whose work is this, emerging around me?
Bonnie DeVarco: zg -- do you want to introduce albion ?
Totoro: So many names on the masthead, the coordinates don"t show!
Bonnie DeVarco: will there be an event in here Zg on the 15th?
zg: i don't know - it depends if we get accepted
zg: which of course we may not
zg: i think the conference is kinda vrml-y
"fignewton": A world of Amandas.
Plus a snowman. Must be a cold day in hell.
Bonnie DeVarco: but V-dub's not bad
[Gaia]: I am a MK1 Multilingual SmartBot, type my name (Gaia) to own
me
digigardener: did we all submit to vrml99?
zg: summers neat
[Gaia]: Jeg er en MK1 flerspråklig SmartBot, skriv mitt navn (Gaia)
og spør meg
[Gaia]: Soy un SmartBot Multilingüe MK1, escribí mi nombre (Gaia) para
ser mi dueño
zg: dunno - did you bruce?
digigardener: i submitted av98
digigardener: did you get confirmation?
zg: aah right
zg: nope not yet - di you
digigardener: nope, i emailed tim to see if he had got all the AW entries
zg: did cof enter too?
digigardener: i dont know how did you hear about the competition?
digigardener: from ccon-news?
Strucky: was talking to the Amigos and apparently anything you build
in AW is theoretically owned by COF. anybody know about that?
Bonnie DeVarco: Okay folks we can move on back to Virtualy -- Lucio
just tele'd
Totoro: Does COF still use that name, as is?
digigardener: COF is not longer
digigardener: AWLD
Strucky: apparently they snatched things like the winning avvy at Av98
Bonnie DeVarco: clear property cache before you go in though
zg: long live CoF :0)
digigardener: ok clear cache
[Gaia]: I am a MK1 Multilingual SmartBot, type my name (Gaia) to own
me
[Gaia]: Jeg er en MK1 flerspråklig SmartBot, skriv mitt navn (Gaia)
og spør meg
[Gaia]: Soy un SmartBot Multilingüe MK1, escribí mi nombre (Gaia) para
ser mi dueño
Bonnie DeVarco: okay see you all back in Virtualy
Lucio: k :)
Lucio: are the other coming ?
Bonnie DeVarco: I told them a few times
ENTERING VIRTUALY FOR THE DEMO
Bonnie DeVarco: and just tele'd each to join
Strucky: howdy
Bonnie DeVarco: hi -- others should be here any minit
Lucio: best to view the process from 50m up :)
Bonnie DeVarco: Sorry Lucio -- a few more minutes
Strucky: i'm here with Jacco, who is going to be joining Beautiful Code
BV
Bonnie DeVarco: Lucio -- some people say they are not being let in
Lucio: hmmm
Bonnie DeVarco: digi says that his thing says "looking for virtualy"
Bonnie DeVarco: everyone is trying to join me
Lucio: k
Bonnie DeVarco: but nobody has made it in -- is it because they cleared
the cache?
Lucio: digi is in...
digigardener: ja sem tady
Lucio: could be...
Lucio: up to 5 now...
"Ely": ciao Lucio dei italiano?
zg: k - in
Bonnie DeVarco: cool
Bonnie DeVarco: a few more folks
Lucio: 6 now...
zg: i assume there is nothing her yet lucio
Bonnie DeVarco: starting from scratch, huh?
zg: well empty ;0 Lucio: yes...
Lucio: starting from a clean world...
zg: nice clean world
zg: all blue
Lucio: only six...
Bonnie DeVarco: clean wet world :-)
Strucky: are you going to make the world dirty?
digigardener: hooo
digigardener: i am in an ocean
Bonnie DeVarco: totoro trying to join again
Lucio: yes... where is he coming from ?
Bonnie DeVarco: setebos are you here?
setebos: yes.
Bonnie DeVarco: Totoro is still trying
Bonnie DeVarco: last one and then we can start
zg: he just tried to join
digigardener: hoy
Lucio: strange... counter is only at six.... is he in the US ?
setebos: what about kirby?
Bonnie DeVarco: he says he is at gz Virtualia at 45meters
digigardener: he is sunk
Bonnie DeVarco: don't see him on the list
Bonnie DeVarco: oh -- he can't join since he is not a citizen -- maybe
he is in gz 0m
Bonnie DeVarco: kirby that is
Lucio: hmmm.... what do we do ?
Bonnie DeVarco: I think we should try to begin
setebos: i had to quit and restart to get in properly
Bonnie DeVarco: okay I will tell totoro to do that
Lucio: just trying again setebos: just told him myself.
Lucio: I can't see him come in ...
Bonnie DeVarco: I think you can begin to describe process now, Lucio
--
Lucio: like he does not register...
zg: he's in aw noe
zg: now
Bonnie DeVarco: while totoro tries to come back in
Bonnie DeVarco: here he is i think
Lucio: welcome :)))
Bonnie DeVarco: Yay
Bonnie DeVarco: the gang's all here?
Totoro: setebos suggested restarting aw. That worked.
Bonnie DeVarco: okay good
Lucio: the problem could be that the IP of virtualy changes...
DEMO BEGINS.....
Lucio: Ok.... ready to go...
Lucio: I've cleared the wolrd so you can see the building in progress...
Lucio: I would suggest turning visibility to 120
Strucky: fitting. X-Files just started on the telly :)
Lucio: There are several steps to the process with which I built Italy
and the Albion landscape...
Lucio: I will concentrate on the ones that bonnie found interesting...
but we can always stop for questions...
Lucio: on www.virtualia.net/lpmod/demo1.jpg to demo6.jpg you will find
some snapshots of excel...
Lucio: This is one of the tools I used primarily to generate the surface...
Lucio: so... first step is generate the surface data..
Lucio: this is basical a 2d matrix where each cell indicates an elevation
value...
Lucio: the indices of the matrix then get converted to the x and z coords
of AW.
Lucio: the value of the cell becomes the Y value
Lucio: my first idea was to generate a non-linear surface... with a
"natural" look...
Strucky: is the generation process steered by excel macros or something?
Bonnie DeVarco: good I think Margaret is joining us right now
Lucio: yes and no... initially it is all basic excel functions but using
circular references...
Strucky: a cellular automaton of some sort? iterative?
Lucio: in http://www.virtualia.net/lpmod/demo1.jpg
you will see the main calc spreadsheet..
Totoro: I got "url not found".
setebos: every cell is a random deviation from the average of the eight
cells around it.
Lucio: correct setebos setebos: do you just start with zero in one cell
and let it fly?
Lucio: the reference to the nearby cells creates the circular reference
that excel manages with an iteration...
Lucio: it basically keeps on scolling trhough the cells for a fixed
numebr of times....
Totoro: OK on the url.
setebos: so it is like a CA.
Lucio: Yes... I start from a zero sheet.... but I try to "seed" the
sheet into a preliminary form...
Lucio: if you look at demo2
you will seethe "seed" spreadsheet...
Lucio: in the first step... I use this sheet to feed the deviation values
of the calc sheet...
setebos: ah, interesting.
Lucio: the numer of iterations depends on how high I want the surface
to grow...
Lucio: the result is in demo3...
Lucio: this way I have generate a piece of surface with mountains north
... and sea south-east
Lucio: AW coordinates :)))
Lucio: everybody following ok ?
Totoro: k
Bonnie DeVarco: yep
queenbee: I am trying to catch up with Bonnie's help:>)
digigardener: u hu
Lucio: ok... the next step is in demo4
...
Lucio: here I have another sheet which contains plain
random numbers...
Lucio: the shift factor is used to have the whole surface rise or sink...
Bonnie DeVarco: [nice to add that little chaos and complexity into the
mix] :-)
Lucio: I then feed this sheet as a deviation and run some more iterations...
Lucio: result is demo5
Lucio: hold on... have a problem...
Totoro: Did Lucio mention the size of the matrix?
Lucio: the matrix for this demo world is 51 x 51
setebos: it's demo6 maybe?
Lucio: no demo5
(now works)
Lucio: as you can see, the linear surface has now turned
rough...
Lucio: where the area contains more postive values you will get a peak...
Lucio: where it contains more negative values you get a depression...
Lucio: the reference to the neighboring cells ensures that the sheet
stays connected....
Lucio: the last step is to apply some "erosion" :)))
Lucio: which is done by simply using a deviation of zero... Lucio: ...
averages the surface ...
Lucio: demo6
queenbee: geological aging
Lucio: :))
Lucio: it is a very basic model ...
queenbee: do increases in the standard deviation affect the jagginess?
Lucio: well... for each "feed" of deviation I apply multiplier factors...
Lucio: I juggle between this factor and the number of iterations to
obtain what I want...
Lucio: it is a trial and error...
Lucio: in a way it is like navigating through the "library of form"
Lucio: to generate Virtualy I went through at leat 50 retries... until
I picked the surface I like best...
Lucio: If you look back at the demo1 function you will also see some
more complex "references"...
kurzon: kurzon stands on a shimmering blue sea of light, on a platform
of blue bricks. Lucio is talking. No one is in sight...
Lucio: I do that to selectively compute only selected regions of the
sheet
Lucio: sorry kurzon... we are doing a demo...
Lucio: ok... lets move on...
digigardener: very interesting soo far, i have been emailing friends
at NASA
digigardener: about this
Strucky: how long before the world fills in
Lucio: I'll start right now...
Lucio: ok.. look north
digigardener: wow queenbee: can you translate x,y,z coordinates to the
spreadsheet and generate from elevation data?
digigardener: all thru the SDK?
digigardener: of Hambots?
Lucio: this is done with hambot...
Lucio: http://www.virtualia.net/lpmod.zip
kurzon: At first they look like crows, swarming over the mountains.
Somehow, the world is filling in. kurzon watches, silently. "This is
a demo" she thinks...
Lucio: this url give you the generation program....
Lucio: :)
queenbee: truly wonderful
zg: is that a new version lucio?
Lucio: no... same one I released some time ago :)
Lucio: the generation program produces three types of output...
zg: k - did you not say there were bugs in it?
zg: or did i misynderstand
Lucio: no.. I fixed the bugs reported...
Lucio: the outputs are :
Lucio: 1) a series of optimize (reused) objects which are like "tiles"
Lucio: 4 vertex with two triangles...
Lucio: each...
Lucio: output 2 is a hambot script which will correctly place the objects
in the world (what I just ran now)
Lucio: output 3 is a batch file to zip them up automatically (for those
of you that do not enjoy zipping up over 400 objects
queenbee: :>)
Lucio: I will not go into the actual ground generation... it is described
in the docs associated to LPmod
Lucio: but the important concept is that objects are reused extensively...
digigardener: this is key
Lucio: if you forget the textures you could generate an entire surface
with no more than 200 different objects.
zg: how many individual objects in this ground lucio?
Lucio: Virtualy's matrix is 200x200 which makes 40,000 ground "tiles"...
zg: what size does the cell file come out at?
Lucio: the trick is simply rounding off the elevation data to the nearest
meter...
Lucio: in LPmod the cell is 5x5 meters with a rounding at 1 meter levels.
Lucio: but I have versions that are flexible...
Lucio: Albion is made of 4x4 with 50 cm levels...
Lucio: gives a smoother surface although it requires a bit more objects
Lucio: ok... let go on...
Lucio: the surface coloring is based on the average height of each tile...
Lucio: snow starts at 25 meters of altitude...
Lucio: a reference scale I used is to multiply the altitude time 100....
Lucio: therefore the snow starts at 2,500 meters...
Lucio: this same logic is applied to the trees...
Lucio: to place them I always start from the surface spreadsheet.
Lucio: I assign to each "species" an altitude range and a "density"
factor.
Lucio: palms grow near the beach...
kurzon: cool palms! Totoro: Wild Palms?
Lucio: next tree has more extension...
queenbee: is it a script that associates tree type with elevation and
then randomly assigns their locations?
Lucio: yes queenbee
Bonnie DeVarco: and if you have, say, 100 species, in your model bank,
you could do the same with all of them!
digigardener: kewl
Lucio: yes.
queenbee: no kidding
kurzon: fall colors!
Lucio: and last the pine trees on the snow.
queenbee: so now how long would this world take to load?
Lucio: ok... lets go down to the ground
digigardener: absolutely fab
Lucio: and reduce your visibility back to 60
Lucio: the loading in AW is sequential... and that is where the object
reuse counts...
Lucio: the entire world is no more than 400k in objects
digigardener: frame rate is ok
digigardener: 3.4
digigardener: even with 120
digigardener: p2 233
Lucio: -y
Lucio: ok.. this is the building process... as I told bonnie, it is
realy a practical combination of things...
Lucio: ... pretty much oriented to the AW technolgy.
Lucio: since this first step (developed about 4 months ago)... I have
started working with the SDK...
Totoro: One could generate the tree position information in an A-Life
program such as Swarm?
Lucio: yes Totoro... I am familiar with the concept but not the tools...
Lucio: my fractal background is just based on reading ...
Lucio: James Gleick, Waldorp, Penrose, kevin Kelly...
digigardener: mandelbrot
Lucio: but this is the first time I actualy play with some of those
concepts with software
Lucio: what I have done with the SDK is to build a AW to SQL interface...
Bonnie DeVarco: you are in good company, Lucio
digigardener: say lucio how do you connect the SDK to a database engine?
Lucio: I have a c prog that read AW on one side and ODBC on the other...
Lucio: it works both ways.
Lucio: I am trying now to start the program so I can show you...
Lucio: had to re-assign it to Virtualy...
Lucio: it was set up for Lptest
Lucio: ok... right now a bot is scanning the world and copying object
data to an SQL table
Lucio: there are 3328 objects in the world...
Lucio: what I will do is take all palms and lower them by 3 meters...
kurzon: SQL table "saves the world?" i.e. all random positions recorded
and same world may be regenerated at later time?
Lucio: yes kurson
kurzon: SQL table references "palm" by object identifier some how so
lowering "palm spec" and sending back to AW causes global change to
palms
kurzon: fractal objects in some lookup table (of scripts?) and invoked
by placement algorithms as per elevation criteria etc.
Lucio: ok... another 3 meters
digigardener: now if we can just get Lsystems in here
Bonnie DeVarco: and java 3D
queenbee: so much for slave labor, the computer liberates again
Strucky: Lsystems result in lots'n'lots of polygons, don't they?
Totoro: Nothing shows beneath the ground? The palms were shortened as
well as lowered?
digigardener: yes but you can use eco-rules to limit growth
queenbee: :>)
digigardener: lucio, a bunch of people are tryig to link java to AW,
any ideas?
Lucio: no... one of the problems is that you have to get your browser
to refresh...
Lucio: I don;t know much about java...
Bonnie DeVarco: Gerald, any clues?
Lucio: but I think the problem is that the technology does not allow
for extensions...
Lucio: I am really working from the outside ...
Strucky: i know nothing about what AW is doing in java space. from what
i've understood, nothing or next to nothing.
zg: they don't really talk - so to speak gerald
Totoro: Is this the cove in southern Italy where Porco Rosso kept his
seaplane?
Bonnie DeVarco: Mandy said that the new sdk features could accomodate
C++ very very well
queenbee: what kind of functions would java serve in AW?
kurzon: Java used outside is like Lucio's C -- a utility that talks
to AW and drives terraforming, but isn't integral within AW itself...
Lucio: :)
Bonnie DeVarco: could be more efficient even than this!
Strucky: what you 've done could probably be written for generating
terrain could be written in a few hundred lines of Java code, i would
guess.
Bonnie DeVarco: which is remarkable enough just using excel
Lucio: yes Strucky.
Strucky: the quantum leap that java represents is embodied in the idea
of mobile code. the flexibility and extensibility that mobile code offers
is something that not enough people understand.
Bonnie DeVarco: please tell us more...
Bonnie DeVarco: CoF principals do not understand the term "mobile code"
as you do
Bonnie DeVarco: could you define it for all of us
Strucky: Java facilitates the SAFE execution of code on various types
of foreign hardware and operating systems.
kurzon: Are details of this demo on the web? Missed hearing if trees
are fractal-generated, how and where. If SQL table saves scripts or
what. Don't want Lucio to have to re-explain everything.
Bonnie DeVarco: I will post the whole thing with screenshots later today
Strucky: when you can execute mobile code, you can send not only things,
but entirely stimulus-motivated complex behaviors.
Lucio: I can send you the transript after kurzon
kurzon: Great
kurzon: Sounds like Bonnie is chronicling the whole event. I will follow
up. Ciao for now. Gotta go. Great demo!!
digigardener: goody
Bonnie DeVarco: please continue, gerald
Totoro: Bye, Kurzon.
Lucio: Strucky.... I think we both agree that the ideal would be to
assign java code to objects
Bonnie DeVarco: bye kurzon
Strucky: bandwidth issues become basically insignificant in many contexts,
because generative objects can arrive and deploy themselves subsequently.
Lucio: bye :)
digigardener: ciao bella
queenbee: bye
Bonnie DeVarco: :)
Bonnie DeVarco: do you have something that will help us visualize what
you are talking about gerald?
Bonnie DeVarco: I can take a nice screenshot
Strucky: most importantly, there is no real limit to the techniques
that you can use to do the generating, because any new code you write
can simply travel around and do it's work.
Bonnie DeVarco: is that how the avatars you are making display their
behaviors?
queenbee: will it enhance interactivity of avs with objects?
Strucky: i'm afraid you'll have to use your imagination, Bonnie. there
is not yet an environment in which this can be demonstrated.
Lucio: I don't know much about VRML and Java3d... but is there potential
there ?
Bonnie DeVarco: so you can actually tweek the variables and introduce
completely new trajectories of behaviors to any object through successive
random interations on a given theme?
Strucky: i've created such things with Java3D
queenbee: ahhhh a practicioner1
Strucky: yes, Bonnie, and the "variables" become the data content, while
the trajectories and behaviors are embodied in the associated code.
Lucio: Gerald, would it be diffuclt to create something like AW where
individual objects are VRML or Java 3d ?
Bonnie DeVarco: so they can be output through different means, though,
like vrml, yes?
digigardener: all coiuld be done thru java3D
digigardener: using loaders for VRML or even RWX
Strucky: there are several VRML parsers that build Java3D scene graph
segments, so VRML can be seen as a convenient and well-known file format.
Strucky: yes, Lucio.
Strucky: i mean, no, it would not be all that difficult.
Lucio: :))) I see the plus of AW as the multiuser and "streaming" protocol...
Strucky: legacy RWX objects could also very probably be parsed by some
java code and integrated into a Java3D scene.
Lucio: RWX is fairly simple...
digigardener: yes folks, and you could event build a java app that talked
to the SDK as an another viewer for AW content :)
Strucky: implementing such a streaming protocol would be very natural
to do in Java, since it is extremely communicative at its core.
Lucio: yes... what I think is necessary is to create a "server" app...
possibly on top of an SQL platform...
digigardener: yes a real database underneath
digigardener: this is how microsoft's upcomgin vworlds works, its on
sql i think
Lucio: when is it coming out ?
digigardener: couple of months or so, beta is started
Strucky: i published an article in JavaWorld last summer that embodies
much of what the server would have to accomplish.
Totoro: The one drawback to Java that I've seen expressed in this context
is speed. Is it still considerably slower than C (C++) for 3d graphics?
Bonnie DeVarco: what is the url?
Strucky: http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-08-1998/jw-08-subjectop.html
Bonnie DeVarco: thanks
Lucio: will read it Gerald :)
Strucky: Tortoro, ALL 3d graphics are done on a level far far below
the java code: OpenGL or DirectX. make no mistake!
Lucio: I love your Ying-Yang for client and server :)))))) mind if I
re-use it ?
Strucky: heh heh
Lucio: that is one of AW's limitations.... renderware is a competitor
to Direct3-d....
Lucio: if you take out also the RWX parsing and use VRML objects it
is practically unused...
Lucio: what I really like instead is the protocol than Ron devised to
sync the databases...
Lucio: that is what keeps the bandiwidth very low...
Lucio: it is also because of this protocol that writing the SQL bot
was fairly easy
Lucio: shall we go back to the real virtualy ?
Totoro: yupyup
Bonnie DeVarco: sure
queenbee: luv to
Lucio: ok... I think it would be best for you to exit aw... clear the
property cache... and renter in 2-3 minutes
Lucio: ready ?
BACK IN ORIGINAL VIRTUALY
Bonnie DeVarco: ahhhh back home
Lucio: :)))
Lucio: missing gerald and digi
Bonnie DeVarco: strucky trying to join me now
Bonnie DeVarco: digi joining
Bonnie DeVarco: that you queenbee?
digigardener: fell again
Lucio: Ok... I have a last thing to show you...
Bonnie DeVarco: k let's continue
Lucio: we all here ? Strucky ?
zg: yep
Lucio: ok... using the same surface data I generated a single object
which is the model...
queenbee: I'm here, sorry, I've been registering students today.
setebos: how does one clear the cache?
Lucio: well... if you see things fine there is no problem...
Lucio: otherwise you have to delete the c:\active worlds\cache\property\virtualy
directory
setebos: i don't. there is no more downloading going on, but there are
gaps in the scenery.
setebos: ok
Bonnie DeVarco: that you strucky?
Strucky: yep
Totoro: I have a fair number of ground tiles missing -- water showing,
instead. I've restarted aw 2x.
zg: flip back to AW and come back in it should kick start it
Bonnie DeVarco: yes gerald just did that, right/
Strucky: yep Lucio: the problem is that we have swapped "reality" for
the browser and it runs into problems with the server sync
Lucio: shall we go on ?
Totoro: Back and forth between AlphaWorld and here a few times -- gaps
continue. An interesting effect.
Bonnie DeVarco: yes please
Lucio: did you clear the cache totoro ?
Totoro: OK .
Totoro: Which folder is Virtuality in?
Lucio: c:\active worlds\cache\property\virtualy
Lucio: ok... the problem with AW is that you fail to see landscape in
the distance..
Lucio: not a problem in flat worlds... but in real 3-d worlds it shows...
Lucio: the trick I'm testing is what Rjinswad calls Extended Visibility...
Lucio: it is based on the fact that the browser calculates distance
only with respect to the origin of the object to display...
Bonnie DeVarco: [extendovis] :-)
Lucio: not the size of the object....
setebos: it's a problem in flat worlds. flying over a cityscape..
Lucio: The drawback is that objects larger than a certain size tend
to become non-solid....
Lucio: but in this case the goal is just visibility....
Lucio: what I have done is use again the same surface data to generate
a single object the size of the world....
Lucio: just a sec.
Lucio: ok...vevt18 should be downloading ... 45k
Lucio: come up to 10 meters and look around
setebos: cool.
queenbee: is it like a moving background?
Lucio: don't wander to far from GZ... it is not yet replicated
Lucio: come up further and you can see the entire world...
digigardener: wow
digigardener: this is great
Lucio: what I am working on is to reduce the level of detail in the
distance... reduce polygons...
Lucio: and the use a prog to generate the object every 4 meters... so
at least on is within visibility...
Lucio: each object will have to be appropriately re-centered ...
Lucio: next thing is texturing with a bitmap of the world
digigardener: wow actual visibility inAW!!!
Bonnie DeVarco: an idea whose time has long since come -- bravo lucio
Totoro: Is this how the world Azure Sky has snow falling in the background?
GQtaylor: Hi Lucio - am I butting in on a formal meeting here?
queenbee: this is amazing
Lucio: a demo GQ ... but not problem :)
Strucky: could somebody explain to a neophyte what is actually so special
about this? sorry.
GQtaylor: Ok - I'm listening in and interested thanks
Bonnie DeVarco: Gerald, when you have your settings
Lucio: Gerald... I see you perplexity... this is just a tweak of an
AW limitation :)))
Bonnie DeVarco: at about 60, most large objects
setebos: normally, everything outside your viewing range is just blank.
Bonnie DeVarco: disappear so you cannot see a full landscape
Bonnie DeVarco: The pan is what gives depth
Bonnie DeVarco: so this gives a sense of distance to a world
Bonnie DeVarco: which until now has been completely unavailable
Bonnie DeVarco: in worlds that have varied elevations -- like V-UCSC
Lucio: the trick is that you don;t care about solidity...
Lucio: because by the time you get to a place the regular modular ground
will have appeared...
queenbee: This will make people much more comfortable, especially in
realistic worlds
Bonnie DeVarco: so it is a type of illusion, right Lucio?
Strucky: if you go out there, do you encounter nonsolid huge polygons?
Bonnie DeVarco: my question is what is the object count of something
like that?
setebos: it is a good way to have a sense of reference to the whole.
Lucio: right... except that the illusion is identical to the actual
ground
queenbee: a picture of the ground yet to be rendered?
setebos: if the actual ground were gone, however, it would just be a
picture up-close. with the ground there, the ground covers up the picture
upclose.
Lucio: it is a single object with a larger nuber of polygons... but
not much more than importerd objects
Lucio: it is basicaly a single object build from the spreadsheet...
Lucio: instead of multiple "tiles"
queenbee: It's almost like an adaptive grid
Bonnie DeVarco: ahhhh flying over it real fast is a good way to understand
it's properties
queenbee: ok
Bonnie DeVarco: very nice
Bonnie DeVarco: vevt18.rwx
Bonnie DeVarco: is that the one object?
Lucio: yes
Bonnie DeVarco: and if you accidently delete it what happens? does it
interfere?
Bonnie DeVarco: with the rest of the world in any way?
setebos: so how do you get the giant object to appear from anywhere?
Lucio: no... it is just like another object... which is placed right
under ground zero...
Lucio: took it off... you can see the triangle right under GZ
Bonnie DeVarco: ahhh okay
Bonnie DeVarco: could you put it up one more time lucio
Lucio: back
Bonnie DeVarco: so I can get a screenshot with the bounding box?
Bonnie DeVarco: got it thanks
Lucio: ok... shall we go into albion...
MOVING ON TO ALBION WORLD
Totoro: The big opbject sure makes it easier to navigate
to the other side of the bay.
Totoro: OK...Albion.
Bonnie DeVarco: si
queenbee: k
[Gaia]: Hi, Welcome to Albion
[Gaia]: Hei, Velkommen til Albion Totoro: Hello, Gaia.
[Gaia]: Hi, Welcome to Albion
[Gaia]: Hei, Velkommen til Albion
[Gaia]: Hola, Bienvenidos a Albion
Bonnie DeVarco: John, they say you cannot do mirrors in AW -- but guess
what -- it is possible!
[Gaia]: Hi, Welcome to Albion
[Gaia]: Hei, Velkommen til Albion
[Gaia]: Hola, Bienvenidos a Albion
[Gaia]: Hi, Welcome to Albion
[Gaia]: Hei, Velkommen til Albion
[Gaia]: Hola, Bienvenidos a Albion.
Totoro: I noticed a number of builders are putting mirror copies of
fobjects and jpgs underwater.
[Gaia]: I speak only English,español,norsk
Lucio: zg ... I can turn off gaia if we are short of users
[Gaia]: Hi, Welcome to Albion
[Gaia]: Hei, Velkommen til Albion
[Gaia]: Hola, Bienvenidos a Albion
[Gaia]: Hi, Welcome to Albion
[Gaia]: Hei, Velkommen til Albion zg: hiya sorry had a glitch and had
to come in again
[Gaia]: Hola, Bienvenidos a Albion Lucio: :)
Totoro: This woman is dressed only in butterflies and a bunny.
zg: she is teh Avatar 98 avvies award winner
zg: kinda famous - in an infamous sort of way Totoro: Summer.
Strucky: a very deserving winner. i wouldn't kick her outa bed for eating
crackers.
Lucio: LOL
zg: yes - all of the Millenium avs are in this worldld :)
Totoro: Underwater and under shiny waxed floors.
zg: a common sentiment i believe
zg: this was all put togetether in a week
Totoro: We sure are making a lot of noise.
zg: as a demonstration
Totoro: Is the mirroring automated or entirely by hand?
[Gaia]: I am a MK1 Multilingual SmartBot, type my name (Gaia) to own
me
[Gaia]: Jeg er en MK1 flerspråklig SmartBot, skriv mitt navn (Gaia)
og spør meg
[Gaia]: Soy un SmartBot Multilingüe MK1, escribí mi nombre (Gaia) para
ser mi dueño
Strucky: (Gaia)
zg: its by hand - the artistic touch :)
zg: try without the brackets gerald
Strucky: Gaia [Gaia]: Hi, Strucky please enter a language. Hola, Strucky
por favor, ingresá un lenguaje
Strucky: english
[Gaia]: This world was constructed in 7 days as a demonstration of collaborative
intelligence and best working practices in a VR environment
[Gaia]: Albion has been submitted for the VRML 99 Exhibition in Paderborn,
Germany
[Gaia]: The collaborators are, Active Art Design, VRAvatars, Virtualia
and The Polygon Factory, each of whom brought a specialised skill to
the endeavour.
[Gaia]: I am a MK1 Multilingual SmartBot, and my function is to provide
general information about the world Albion
[Gaia]: In addition I have information about the team which created
the world and features within it
[Gaia]: I am only a couple of days old at the moment, so I am still
learning. But, like you humans, and my bot siblings, I will evolve (I
hope)
[Gaia]: Would you like more information about the world, the team ,
or some of the world features
Strucky: yes, honey, but that's not what i was hoping to talk about.
[Gaia]: Look - you must have confused me with someone that actually
cares, however...
[Gaia]: I can help with the world, the team , and the features
Strucky: who does your hair?
[Gaia]: hmmm... now thats a very good question
[Gaia]: I can help with the world, the team , and the features
[Gaia]: Hi, Welcome to Albion
[Gaia]: Hei, Velkommen til Albion
[Gaia]: Hola, Bienvenidos a Albion
zg: she's a little tempera mental
Totoro: Is there a reason why bots such as Gaia aren't as sophisticated
as the ancient adventure text game interactive dialogues? Or are they?
zg: well - she's only a couple of days old
[Gaia]: Cya, Strucky
zg: just an exercise really
Strucky: what she lacks in sophistication she makes up in raw good looks
zg: to see if multilingual would work
zg: only a dumb hambot script
Totoro: Where is Fat Angel from?
zg: indeed she does
zg: fata angel is in winnpipeg
Bonnie DeVarco: Zg do you and Lucio wnat to talk a bit about what you
plan to do with Albion?
zg: winnipeg even
zg: well we are planning on using it as a demo and a testbed for aw
[Gaia]: I am a MK1 Multilingual SmartBot, type my name (Gaia) to own
me
[Gaia]: Hi, Welcome to Albion
zg: taking the technology as far as it goes before it breaks
[Gaia]: Hei, Velkommen til Albion
[Gaia]: Hola, Bienvenidos a Albion
zg: its the first time we have all worked together
zg: and it has been entered for vrml99
zg: really to showcase aw against the competition
zg: its not entirely practical
zg: but it was never intended to be
zg: so in that respect - it has achieved its objectives
Bonnie DeVarco: tell us abouit the mirror effect
Bonnie DeVarco: in the gallery, zg
zg: its a trick - taken from another technology
Bonnie DeVarco: strucky, can you peel your eyes from summer for a minute?
:-)
zg: the thing with aw
Bonnie DeVarco: you really should see this
Bonnie DeVarco: [teasing]
Strucky: sorry.
zg: is that it supports so few 'functions' that everything is a comprimise
[Gaia]: I am a MK1 Multilingual SmartBot, type my name (Gaia) to own
me
[Gaia]: Jeg er en MK1 flerspråklig SmartBot, skriv mitt navn (Gaia)
og spør meg
zg: lots of lateral thinking to achieve various effects
[Gaia]: Soy un SmartBot Multilingüe MK1, escribí mi nombre (Gaia) para
ser mi dueño
Strucky: the amigos had this mirror thing going at one point, and were
showing me
zg: its an old trick
zg: kinda slows everything down though
Bonnie DeVarco: but this one is particulary nice
zg: the main thing with this world is the speed with which it has been
put together
setebos: we are all vampires.
Bonnie DeVarco: not unusual for you though, zg
zg: no other technology can do the same - certainly not so fast
zg: indeed - all vampires :)
Bonnie DeVarco: it is the speed of this medium in the hands of talented
folks like the albion makers that gives pause
Bonnie DeVarco: and is quite exciting proof of its efficiency
Bonnie DeVarco: and appeal to students
Totoro: zg, you have superhuman powers in this world. Us mortals can
only dream of flight in Albion.
zg: i have yet to see anything comparable in any other technology
zg: if anyone knows of anything i would be grateful to hear about it
Bonnie DeVarco: ahhh I noticed a problem
[Gaia]: I am a MK1 Multilingual SmartBot, type my name (Gaia) to own
me zg: its not only my work zg: its a team effort
[Gaia]: Jeg er en MK1 flerspråklig SmartBot, skriv mitt navn (Gaia)
og spør meg
Bonnie DeVarco: gaia please shhh
[Gaia]: Ok - if you insist - i'll just shut up until you think you need
me :(
zg: the landscape is lucios
zg: avs are MTK and Netro's
Bonnie DeVarco: the prob is that we don't see our avatar's mirror image
in the floor :-)
zg: yes - we thought about that
zg: not possible within the timeframe
zg: but possible
Bonnie DeVarco: pretty hard to do on the fly
zg: thats not entirely tru
zg: but you would have to mirror everything that the av did
zg: would take a while
zg: especially for summer
Totoro: I don't care for shoot-em-yps; but some of the gamer technology
is very advanced. The're main quest is for speed, of course. OpenGL
has some serious advantages in some areas over Renderware, it apperars.
zg: thats true
Lucio: renderware is old :))) came out in 1993 I believe\
zg: some of the game stuff is great
zg: but it still needs a serious machine to run propewrly
zg: and is not dynamic like aw zg: that is aw's big advantage (imho)
- it lives
zg: (kind of)
[Gaia]: I am a MK1 Multilingual SmartBot, type my name (Gaia) to own
me
Bonnie DeVarco: folks I hate to butt in but
[Gaia]: Jeg er en MK1 flerspråklig SmartBot, skriv mitt navn (Gaia)
og spør meg
Totoro: Yes, aw has its advantage, too.
[Gaia]: Soy un SmartBot Multilingüe MK1, escribí mi nombre (Gaia) para
ser mi dueño
Bonnie DeVarco: I need to run and want to take the opportunity to thank
Lucio
Bonnie DeVarco: for such a great demo
zg: Strucky: yeah, thanks Lucio. i gotta go too.
Lucio: thanks :)
Bonnie DeVarco: Bravo lucio -- and thank all of you folks for coming
zg: k
Totoro: Summer is still in myth, isn't she. When she's stil, you can
see here butterflys flutter.
Bonnie DeVarco: I hope this can become a regular thing
Strucky: mille grazzi
Lucio: yep see you around to talk some more :)
zg: interesting talk
zg: yes - she's still in myth i think
Bonnie DeVarco: I will post this for all of you -- you do not mind,
do you Lucio?
Bonnie DeVarco: If I post on the Struck list too?
Lucio: no problem :)
Lucio: fine :)
Bonnie DeVarco: could I get -- ohb this is silly -- a group shot waving?
Lucio: LOL Lucio: in front of the FAT Angel ?
[Gaia]: Hi, Welcome to Albion [Gaia]: Hei, Velkommen til Albion
Bonnie DeVarco: over here in froont of the virtualy image
Bonnie DeVarco: ?
[Gaia]: Hola, Bienvenidos a Albion
setebos: yeah, great stuff lucio. thinking of adaptations as we speak.
zg: in the gallery
Bonnie DeVarco: yes
Bonnie DeVarco: appreciate it guys --
Totoro: This one, Bonnie. Or is there another?
Bonnie DeVarco: over where summer is
Bonnie DeVarco: Albion world map
zg: gaia
[Gaia]: Hi, zg please enter a language. Hola, zg por favor, ingresá
un lenguaje
zg: might be an idea to check your avs guys :)
[Gaia]: :0) "Seeker"
"Seeker": Hi.
Bonnie DeVarco: okay everybody wave or macarena
zg: fyi totoro - you are a girl
Bonnie DeVarco: thanks its a wrap!
Totoro: I've spent many hours in Albion in this av.
Bonnie DeVarco: for me anyway -- cya!!
Strucky: bye
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